Hey Tom.
Interesting reading. I'm certainly not going to address the technical {cause I'm not knowledgeable in the arts}, but the common thread I see is Randy jumping to attack the guy on a personal level rather than talking specific details of the subject matter. Then the usual mob mentality begins and the attack drones come out to further confuse the issues and take the subject off topic.
BUT I was glad to see that a challenge was issued and hope it would actually take place. The biggest surprise is that the thread wasn't immediately deleted cause someone used your name... [8D]
P.S. It's just business as usual at the forum....[?|]

I concur apparently Randy cannot converse on sort of normal plain. I would like to see this challenge happen maybe they can both learn from each other and make a better Focus Aftermarket. I think that is probably wishful thinking. I have an pretty good knowledge of cars as that is what I studied in College and working with them is what I do for a living. But I had no idea that a wideband was not as big of a part as I once thought. There is a few more wrinkles for the old brain.

I just read all of that...

I laughed, I cried, I shit my pants [hihi]

Home many people on this Board really get tunes from Randy or FS I wonder.....Seems like you and Wayne were where everyone on this board that bought tunes and talked about it would go.

Originally posted by JRODSVT
I concur apparently Randy cannot converse on sort of normal plain. I would like to see this challenge happen maybe they can both learn from each other and make a better Focus Aftermarket.


I know right whats the worst that can happen the focus owners get a better tune bahhh who would want that.... [???:)] [8] NEway i say let em hash it out

So whens the duel... is it next Friday, Saturday after next or this Sunday? I hope Oscar can show up.... [:D]

A duel would be pointless , what would it prove ? More of randys unwillingness to be openminded and maybe learn something from someone that has been tuning before the first Focus was ever built

Keep in mind that just a few years ago he was selling the over the counter preprogramed chips and thought they were the best thing for tuning sence a ECU came out , then when SCT came out he was telling these same customers how big a piece of crap they were and how they should spend more money and buy his new stuff , Its a money thing and it shouldnt be when it comes to tuning , Im allways open to new ideas and trying new tuning ideas

Tom

When I first bought my Xcal2, I talked to him to get it unlocked and a tune....he was pretty full of himself and whatta royal pain in the ass too...they wont email you a tune....have to pass that tuner back and forth in the mail each time.

anyways, funny to read...I see the vibe I got off the phone wasnt too far from the truth.

No one tuner can make a change that another tuner cannot make with the same software and fs doesent have anything Diff from me or McNews or anyother SCT tuner/dealer

So why he does that is beyond me


Tom

is randy really that stupid? Tom, next week I am going to need to order the PRP and the baseline turbo tune from you

Originally posted by finalley
[B]the common thread I see is Randy jumping to attack the guy on a personal level rather than talking specific details of the subject matter. Then the usual mob mentality begins and the attack drones come out to further confuse the issues and take the subject off topic.


Yeah, because none of that ever happens here...

[rolleyes]

tom doesn't attack people personally

Originally posted by gobstopper
Yeah, because none of that ever happens here...

[rolleyes]

It doesn't lessen the fact that it happened there, so please don't divert the point.

Oh, hey maybe it's just Randy's way to get professionals in so he can learn more, without having to ask. [:)]

It seems like an argument that could have been left to the PM function for the sake of civility and common business courtesy. But...Joe did "challenge" Randy to a tune-off, or...lol... "bigger penis contest". So...I guess Randy had the right to be a dick about it. I don't know wtf a wideband is, but that thread had me LMAO and also anxious to read on. Maybe i'll cruise up to their tune day and watch the bullets fly.

I laughed when Randy got called out about exploding engines. Who's this Joe guy? I'd be interested to see if this ever materializes and how soon it disintegrates into some hands tied horse shit like the Focus shootout races.

the tuning competiton is kinda gay. TAKE IT TO THE TRACK

I dont think randy will go to the track we already saw how well that worked out

Tom

ohhh yeah i forgot about that! some ho cards was pulled

Originally posted by turbovation
It seems like an argument that could have been left to the PM function for the sake of civility and common business courtesy. But...Joe did "challenge" Randy to a tune-off, or...lol... "bigger penis contest". So...I guess Randy had the right to be a dick about it. cruise

What ?? FS very 1st response to Joe disrespected him by telling him to "take it on the road" w/a laughing smilie. The FJ specialty....Attack&humiliate the person,not the subject or problem .

Wow.

I'm posting this on both sides, just FYI

Randy sells his stuff the way he does for profit, and lots of it.

I say if other vendors have the same or equivalents for cheaper (which happens a lot) then go there.

A lot of people are conditioned to the idea that FS is the be all, end all of Focus tuning, and people look at me funny when I tell them, "I'm buying that from Ricardo, or Walter."

Not to say anything bad about Randy, but if he can get Focus owners to spend money on him because they are not as educated as they should be, more power to him. He's here to make money. Lots of it.

I remember when I first got my Focus, I though that H&R sport and race springs from FS were the only springs you could get for it...

Lamar

I think Randy's initial posts assumed the poster wanted to know if he needed it to tune, but Joe got the impression that the poster just wanted the guage to have it, not for tuning. I think there may be some bad blood there that gets in the way at times. I don't know Joe or his history as a tuner. It seems most of his experience has been with Speed Density aftermarket ECU's. I think he does have some valuable knowledge but his delivery sometimes leaves something to be desired. That is probably what causes the conflicts more then anything. He is a guilty as anyone of the "I know everything, you don't know anything" moniker. It's best to to just state facts and let them stand for themselves. There is no way to argue with the truth. It doesn't do any good to spout accusations that this shop or that shop doesn't know what they are doing. The only thing these pissing matches do is make the parties involved lose credibility. The fact that it was cross posted from one forum to another doesn't help the situation either. Can't we all just get along?

Jersey

Originally posted by finalley
What ?? FS very 1st response to Joe disrespected him by telling him to "take it on the road" w/a laughing smilie. The FJ specialty....Attack&humiliate the person,not the subject or problem .

I guess you missed the part where Joe's first entry into the thread was to dismissively state that using a wideband is a distraction from real tuning and that Randy just looks to achieve a "magical" air/fuel ratio. Oh, and he managed to sneak the laughing smiley in that first post as well. The post you're referring to came AFTER Joe came in swinging in his first post in the thread saying that Randy's approach to tuning involves magical thinking and bling. [thumb]

haha any how mnay cars as fs tuned over 400whp?????? i havent heard of any....

I can......because they're a distraction from the real goal of tuning, which is to make as much power as you can, not search out some magical air-fuel ratio with a guage.

They can be useful if you're actually DOING mapping, but aside from that, they're just "bling".
__________________
Joe Morgan

There is Joes first post i dont see anything about randy or his way of tuning stated

The way i look at what was said was a AEM AF gauge is nothing more then bling . I have a very costly AF in my dyno and i check it regulary for accuracy when customers come in I check there gauge and in 70% of the time there gauge is off by .5 to .7 for if the"magical" air/fuel ratio is 11.8 then he could be 11.1 or 12.5 and either way it would be a distraction from the real goal of tuning, which is to make as much power as you can, not search out some magical air-fuel ratio with a guage.

Another way to look at that is , In the base fuel tables you but in a target AF much like the "magical" air/fuel ratio talked about of lets say 11.8 because it is just that its pulled out of your ???? because the Focus ECU does not use the factory o2 sensors it cannot see this as a target you have to go to the Maf Transfer Functions to make the fuel adjustments and in most cases these are never the same on 2 Foci , this is why sending out mailorder tunes is so hard to do from Focus to Focus

When im finished getting my AF/timing close to where i think it should be i go back and play with the fuel and the timing and in a lot of cases find more SAFE power , The engine will tell you more then the AF gauge will every time

Joe stated "They can be useful if you're actually DOING mapping, but aside from that, they're just "bling".

What other reason would you need a AF gauge for other then mapping either by fuel tables or MTF or to have it mounted in the piller switching back and forth from red to green for bling

A funny thing randy said , something about ill take away the AF gauge and let you tune that way . in the 80`s with my first dyno we couldnt afford thousands of $$$$$ for a AF gauge and dynojet didnt offer one we tuned 100`s of blown cars with out them , It just comes down to knowing what your doing , understanding engines and using what you know , It wouldnt be a problem to tune a 400HP focus with no AF gauge , Would it be a smart thing to do ?

If you look at this as tuning and not with your head up randys ???? you will see he was offering a differant approach to tuning

Tom

Tom, this is one of the best things i have seen you post my friend. Couldnt have been said better. This alone shows what you know. This is a rare thing for me to say Tom. You have shown that you have years of tuning behind what you say.

I told a couple of you I'd let you know what I had going this week and why I didn't go out to the dyno day deal (aside from the fact that it would cost me $800 to play on their dyno...LOL)...

I got to do an episode of Overhaulin' and we did John Force's little yellow school bus. He bought some old piece of crap (but kinda cool) 1956 Ford "short" bus and they stole it from him and did the Foose treatment on it...460SCJ, Allison trans (a REAL Allison, not a pretend GM one [;)] ), 9" with Baers all around...air suspension, kickass sounds...VERY badass. I did the chassis/drivetrain electrical work and spent a couple days doing body prep stuff at Paint-n-Place while I was waiting to have something to wire.

Very cool deal...lots of work and long hours...they don't pay you, but they feed you very well. [:D] I got a couple pairs of gloves and a truckload of t-shirts...made some new friends. I got to find out why people rave about Chip Foose so much...the guy is the most modest, down-to-earth guy you'd ever want to meet. He straight-up loves what he does...he and I and one crew guy were the only ones left at 4:00 this morning and he was there to paint a couple little tiny things on the wheels. That's hardcore.

But hey...maybe I should have just said "F-it" and gone to the dyno day instead...LOL

I just got home and my head is still spinning..I'll probably be sleeping all day tomorrow and then be back to my normal boring routine...LOL Got home at 5:00 this morning, back out there at 9:30 and got done shooting at 1:00am. It should be on sometime in the first couple weeks of December if the schedule I saw stays in order...

I thought it may have been Overhaulin when we were PMing each over at FJ!!!

Totally SWEET!!!

That is awesome Joe I will look for it!

hahaha randy is such a prick. I've been goin to automotive tech school for computer diag/ tuning and I feel like I know more than he does already.

They said they normally don't care if you tell people what's up, but since Force's place, Jerry's shop, the OH shop and all the people involved in pulling it off are so close...AND we're all in the same biz...the exact vehicle and the victim were a big secret. If anyone mentioned either one, and even a hint got back to Force, it would have blown the deal.

I guess they really messed with him at his shop yesterday...they had their actor guy go out and tell him that they found the bus and jack him up about the drugs they found in it or something. I can't wait to see it.

Originally posted by venomfocus
the tuning competiton is kinda gay. TAKE IT TO THE TRACK


Well the track would be dependant mostley on the driver, so this wouldnt be a true test.

and not so much a competition just a sharing of common knowledge towards one common goal would be nice

Guys, I would like to remind you to please keep the personal attacks to a minimum or this thread is getting locked.

It's fine to have a difference of opinions as long as its not taken to a personal level.

LOL...if it was a "take it to the track" deal it would be kinda ugly for them. :)

I do ACTUAL race cars, not poseur-mobiles that "boost 20PSI" and make "250 horse". [:D]

The whole thing started as a pretty straight-forward question...do you NEED a wide-band on an NA car? No you don't. You don't NEED a wide-band on any car if you're not actually doing mapping.

I guess if you can't rely on or you can't trust the tuning you have/did, you could use one, but any old cheap-ass O2 sensor will do the same thing in that sense. You're just looking for dead-lean and a $20 sensor will tell you that just as well.

It's like having a real-time display of individual tire pressures...sure, it's interesting to watch, but not really necessary unless you're going for the "gee-whiz" points at a show.

so joe you gonna show em how its done or what? i'd like to check this out if i can attend this. it would be nice to get a straight answer so people can plan to be there.

Attend what? If you're talking about his "challenge"...that's just a BS smokescreen, because he knows I'm not spending $800 to go tune on someone else's car. Besides that, what's there to "tune"? He builds the car and sets the combination and the rules...and you're supposed to do something with that?

Oh yeah...what's the goal? Highest HP spike? Lowest EGT? Quickest ET? Lowest safe BSFC? Highest boost reading without breaking a piston on pump gas? Highest average torque? Highest average power?

I tend to take a more holistic approach to my stuff. I don't set up unworkable combinations then crow about mediocre results compared to other cobbled-together combinations. But then, my stuff runs hard and doesn't blow up...LOL

I have cars out and around everywhere, from the desert to the show circuit...and unlike FS, I've never blown a single one up "tuning" it. I've never had a customer blow up one of mine, ever.

I don't get how only having experience on one particular ECU and one motor makes you better. Like Tom said, they thought their chips were the stuff a couple years ago...now they're the tuning gods.

Tuning isn't magic. It's mostly just knowing how the deal works and applying a methodical process to figuring out what the motor wants. There isn't a set answer or air-fuel ratio, it's a process you apply to whatever car or ECU you happen to be working on.

Anyone who tells you different is blowing smoke up your a$$ in order to get you to part with money.

maybe we could start a fund for you so you can get some sct software then. i bet tom would give you a hell of a deal. right tom? and i read thru these 2 threads and you said you could beat them in pretty much any situation so i guess everyone is expecting you to make good on your words. [:)]

Joe, if you want to do a tuning contest between you and Randy I can arrange that.

Let me know if you are interested and we can go into this further.

We can have a test mule and you guys would send me your best tunes. The car with the most power wins.[:)]

The last challange he (fs) accepted he didnt even show up (many excuses) at and most of it was set to his liking. I would hate to see this cluster

If your going to have a pissing contest its best not to have the other guy holding the urinal

Tom

Originally posted by 1turbofocus
The last challange he (fs) accepted he didnt even show up (many excuses) at and most of it was set to his liking. I would hate to see this cluster

If your going to have a pissing contest its best not to have the other guy holding the urinal

Tom

Well if Randy doesn't show then we'll know where he stands.

As of now, I would like to know if Joe is willing to take the challenge so I can make the proper arrangements.

We can do mild mods or leave the car stock, its up to you.

Take the challange why? Its a proven fact that Joe has tuned more cars with more HP for more years, Crap it took fs 6+ years to produce a 300+HP Focus and had to have a 6000+$$$$ cosworth engine to make that happen

So if Joe goes to fs and makes 2HP more then randy is that going to prove Joe can out tune randy?

I already know where randy stands !

Tom

Tom, my question was directed at Joe. So please do not speak for him until I get a response. I do not need another person defending him as he is able to respond for himself.

You brought the discussion here so I want to end it once in for all with allowing both Randy and Joe a venue for the challenge.

If there is no challenge then I will lock this thread as there is no need to continue a debate when nothing is going to happen.

You quoted what i said and thought part of it was directed at me

This wasent brought over because of the challange but to let others know there was alternative ways of tuning , I have been contacted by other with SCT PRP doing there own tuning to go over this so it has done a lot of good and opened some eyes as to how things work

A lot of people think i do this to just bash on fs but every time i have done this was to correct misinformation and show people either the correct way or another way to do things ,

I dont mean any of this disrespectfull to you, you being the big cheese and all , but to let you know that this isnt just to make randy look bad he does that all by him self but to help others that may think what is said as the only way or the correct way to do something

Tom

No offense taken Tom.[;)]

And proving any misinformation is exactly what I'm trying to do here. Plus I see no harm with a friendly tuning match. Even if the average were only a few HP difference between the two, it would still be fun to see. They both live in Southern CA so no one has to really go out of their way.

So for now please hold off on your responses or talk to me privately until I hear back from Joe.

I would put my car up as the test vehicle if they want to try. I think Joe would show him whats up. I think Tom could do the same thing to Randy. Thats just my opinion. My car could be a good test bed.

Im up for the trip if someone wants to fork the bill , lol

Originally posted by thekrux
maybe we could start a fund for you so you can get some sct software then. i bet tom would give you a hell of a deal. right tom? and i read thru these 2 threads and you said you could beat them in pretty much any situation so i guess everyone is expecting you to make good on your words. [:)]

There's more to "tuning" than just tapping keys. You do the motor right for the application, use the appropriate fuel and then tune it right. You can't polish a turd.

Oh yeah...LOL...the urinal thing is funny...LOL Come to my place and tune on my car with software you can't even see without spending $800 and have a "contest" with no finish line.

Tom (the gobble-gobble one),

The horsepower comes from the parts you use. Period.

All you are going to get out of a certain combo is what you're gonna get. You can get it safely or you can get it on the edge of destruction. You can get it by blowing a bunch of smoke and pimping extra garbage or you can just tell the truth and tune the thing for what it's worth and call it good. It's been well established that their stuff is on the hairy edge...and not in a good way. They're chasing numbers and doing things they shouldn't be doing in an effort to sell the sizzle. If you want sizzle, but no steak...with a side of baked parts, then by all means, go for it.

There are no keys that raise the octane level and there are no keys that lower the compression ratio. You tune the car to the highest safe power level you can, given the parts and fuel you have to deal with. You can't just decide on your own that you gan get XXX HP or run XX boost on whatever swill you put in the tank. Dumping fuel or retarding the crap out of the timing kills the motor, it just does it slower than detonation and in a much more permanent way.

I'm more a fan of safe and efficient tunes with fat powerbands and good driveability and reliability done in a non-dramatic fashion, but if you're not, then just have Randytodd "tune" your car for you. It really doesn't matter if you don't mind spending the time and the money...if you do mind, find someone...ANYONE...with some actual experience and you'll be better off.

I say, do it at a Ford dealer, mobile dyno, make it a big to-do, use TWO Stock Foci from the lot and tune away. Have it be a multiple part test: Power, Driveablilty, Fuel Economy, etc. Of course, itd require a baseline, and then factor the HP/TQ difference at the end (ala Handicap).

I would put my car on the line, but I only trust my newborn baby to one man, and he is building my motor, and I am running his turbo. No offense to anyone else (Joe) but I like minimal hands on my car.

I think the at a dealer idea would be cool. Shame I'm on the other coast.

...of course, I have Tom on my coast! [;)] to the Cali guys!

This is a tuner shootout so I think they should tune a non Focus with an aftermarket ECU. If Randy is so wonderful he can tune everything. This is a level playing field.

On a side note. I think its funny that Fastrax car makes over 400 whp on less boost and a 2.0 Zetec. Randys fully race prepped COSWORTH 2.3 piece can't do that with all that stuff and more boost. My hats off to Fastrax.


Take the boy to school. GO JOE!!

Originally posted by Yel900rr
This is a tuner shootout so I think they should tune a non Focus with an aftermarket ECU. If Randy is so wonderful he can tune everything. This is a level playing field.

On a side note. I think its funny that Fastrax car makes over 400 whp on less boost and a 2.0 Zetec. Randys fully race prepped COSWORTH 2.3 piece can't do that with all that stuff and more boost. My hats off to Fastrax.


Take the boy to school. GO JOE!!

First... Randy's white focus has a built bottom end and cams, that's it. Jons focus has a ported head, cams, built bottom end, custom intake, high end turbo manifold, etc.... There is a TON more money in Jons car than Randy's and you know it. I'm consistantly amazed as how childish you guys can act. Your like the bullies in third grade and the worst thing is, people on this board listen to you because they think your telling the truth.[rolleyes]


Please find the post where randy states he can tune on anything, you wont find it?
It was Joe who stated he can out-tune randy with any software, not the other way around.

Please find the post where Randy states that his method of tuning is finding the magical AF.

I've seen randy tune first hand, so I know his methods. He picks his target A/F to start out, then he goes from there. Is there any tuner that doesn't do this?

What is the deal with you guys? What did Randy ever actually "DO" to you?

You "assume" he's saying things, you read into his remarks. Yes he is definatley in the business of profit no doubt, but he tries his best to help out. What more can you ask?

With all the dick-swinging going on in here, you'd think you guys had some major grudge against randy, when all it is, is you guys back-dooring a guy who you've never met or actually talked to as a person.

Last question... Does anyone think that Tom hasn't tuned an engine that has blown up? Seriously?

Are you FS's emissary?

Originally posted by belacyrf
First... Randy's white focus has a built bottom end and cams, that's it. Jons focus has a ported head, cams, built bottom end, custom intake, high end turbo manifold, etc.... There is a TON more money in Jons car than Randy's and you know it. I'm consistantly amazed as how childish you guys can act. Your like the bullies in third grade and the worst thing is, people on this board listen to you because they think your telling the truth.[rolleyes]


Please find the post where randy states he can tune on anything, you wont find it?
It was Joe who stated he can out-tune randy with any software, not the other way around.

Please find the post where Randy states that his method of tuning is finding the magical AF.

I've seen randy tune first hand, so I know his methods. He picks his target A/F to start out, then he goes from there. Is there any tuner that doesn't do this?

What is the deal with you guys? What did Randy ever actually "DO" to you?

You "assume" he's saying things, you read into his remarks. Yes he is definatley in the business of profit no doubt, but he tries his best to help out. What more can you ask?

With all the dick-swinging going on in here, you'd think you guys had some major grudge against randy, when all it is, is you guys back-dooring a guy who you've never met or actually talked to as a person.

Last question... Does anyone think that Tom hasn't tuned an engine that has blown up? Seriously?


He has a Cosworth head and intake manifold as well.

Bela he acts like he is Gods gift to tuning these cars. I have talked to him before. He tries to talk down to us and like everybody is chasing them. We are well beyond that. We have nothing to prove and will just take care of our customers 1 by 1 as they come thru the door. We are not on a dreaming EGO trip. I am not back dooring him. I am looking forward to meeting him one day and I will say the same to him personally. I have said before he does an decent job on his tuning. I don't agree on his mailorder stuff. He needs a reality check.

When it comes to blown engines. Sometimes stuff happens. We have been fortunate but I won't point any fingers about that because it can always bite you in the rear.

Please find the post where Randy states that his method of tuning is finding the magical AF

I've seen randy tune first hand, so I know his methods. He picks his target A/F to start out then he goes from there.

Ray, honestly I've never ever heard him talk down about you guys, and he is pretty open with me.

Ray I know you have nothing to prove, I know Tom has nothing to prove, you guys have been doing great for a long time, no doubt. But you act like randy has to prove himself. He has SCT, that's all he uses. That software has limitations we all know it. He's doing the best he can with it and IMO he's doing pretty damned well when it comes to tuning the duratec.

Do any of you disagree that his duratec tunes seem to be pretty nice? The power is excellent, the curves are smooth.

I've never known Randy to jump on someone for no reason. But I have seen him defend himself and his work when he's being attacked. Maybe if you guys started building a working relationship with a fellow Focus Shop instead of a competetive back-biting relationship, things would change.

This "bash on Randy" crap is rediculous and seems like we're in 3rd grade dealing with bullies.

I am DEAD SERIOUS, I have never seen Randy speak down about your tuning abilities EVER. He knows you guys are doing a good job, but he's doing a good job as well I think and I cant see why you guys would disagree.

As for mail order tunes, I know for a fact he doesn't like tuning via mail, but if that's that's what the customer wants he'll do it, explaining that things wont be perfect. It's a business decision, and if you feel it's too risky to even partake in that type of thing, thats your business decision, which is totally cool. But dont imply that Randy things tuning by mail is perfect and flaw free, I know he hates it.

SVTBishop - Do you know a damned thing about tuning? If not then please refrain from showing your idiocy in public.

I guess in all your knowledge, you would leave the air-fuel alone.
[rolleyes]


Finally.. damned straight. I will defend Randy to the end when I feel he's being wrongly attacked. Just like it seems you'll kiss Toms hind parts at every possible opportunity.

Come on now guys. Can't you give your "professional opinions" on certain matters without making it SEEM so personal against Randy. I've corresponded with Tom, Joe & Ray in the past and all of you seem to be cool individuals. Also, it is clear that you guys are very passionate and knowledgable about what you are doing. Can Randy's tuning be THAT BAD to you guys? Sure he might be fairly new to the tuning world compared to you guys but is it really necessary to bash everything he says or does? I don't every recall him saying that he is "the best tuner" out there and he seems very modest from the times I've spoken with him. However, it is evident that he is confident in what he is doing and VERY committed. Yes, I have their kit on my car so I may appear to be slightly biased but I assure you that I am only biased to the extent that I have dealt with him more than I have dealt with you guys. I must agree that I do like to see different views on these issues but I think if you express these views in terms of "I prefer to do it this way" or "here's my view on the subject" rather than "his way is wrong" or "he doesn't know what he's doing" people will take your opinions more objectively and won't automatically think you just want to bash someone else. Anyway, just thought I'd put in my $0.02.

Listen belacrap i didnt come to you and say anything negative so F off and if you dont like that go read the above again

and since you mentioned were all kissing butt here i guess we could say the same about you and randy.


I said nothing negative about either of the tuners all i said is that it would be nice to have two or more people working for the same goal

so the next time you feel the urge to attempt to slander somone open your bedroom door and yell at your mom

nowhere ever do i claim to tune cars sooooooo

You think you can make an uninformed post like that and expect it to stick?

You seem to think your quote was intelligent. So lets discuss the details and I'll give you an opportunity to prove the point you think you were making.

How do you feel that picking a target A/F when starting to tune, and finding a "magical A/F" are the same thing?

What do you feel the process in tuning a car should be? Please educate me.

Dont get on my case when you hop in on the "bash randy" fest without facts to back things up.

And yes I know I'm being a dick, but you are joining in on an attack of someone I consider a friend and who I know first hand works hard for the focus community.

So if you want me to F-Off, so be it, but next time you want to make a point, then MAKE IT, instead of making some random quote with Bold and thinking that spells it out for you.

I have said before his tunes look decent from the charts I have seen. Randy does talk like he knows it all about tuning these cars. He does not have a problem criticizing someone elses's work. Look at F2 dyno he started a new post about smoothing to try and make them look bad. Sure there dyno looked a little bad in some areas but he tried to drive it home on F2. He doesn't like competition and will attack peoples work with his buddies that get on the boards and everyone knows it. I have customers who will not post on FJ because of his groupies.

hmm i think jons car is tuned for c16 and the fs car was tuned for 91 or 94 octane. doesn't that make a difference? so much for correcting misinformatio here, lol. anyway how many can compete with jon?

Originally posted by thekrux
hmm i think jons car is tuned for c16 and the fs car was tuned for 91 or 94 octane. doesn't that make a difference? so much for correcting misinformatio here, lol. anyway how many can compete with jon?

Your point is?

mcnews i read that thread you are talking about and from what i read f2 and others were using dyno smoothing as an excuse. props to fs for educating us, hell i woulda just not known any better and in that thread others admitted the same thing. nothing wrong with that.

I don't believe anyone here has a problem with Jon. I believe he is very much respected and deserves it.

my point? you tell me since you are the pros. can't you make more power on higher octane? what kinda power does a car make on c16 compared to 94 octane?

You guys can always put a twist on whatever he says to suit yourselves.

Depends on the setup. I just had a car hear that was tuned with 94 and now has 100 didn't make but 2 to 3 more.

Originally posted by McNews
I have said before his tunes look decent from the charts I have seen. Randy does talk like he knows it all about tuning these cars. He does not have a problem criticizing someone elses's work. Look at F2 dyno he started a new post about smoothing to try and make them look bad. Sure there dyno looked a little bad in some areas but he tried to drive it home on F2. He doesn't like competition and will attack peoples work with his buddies that get on the boards and everyone knows it. I have customers who will not post on FJ because of his groupies.

You know i hear you guys say this all the time, but i have never seen Randy ever post like he knows it all. Please provide proof. Because I bet it doens't exist.

As for F2. He posted his dyno with a hi-boost dyno (It was NOT an F2 dyno) and never once criticized the Hi-Boost dyno, he just put it up there for comparison. FocusSport has a history of sharing all of the information that they have, just like many of the vendors here do, which is a GREAT thing.

I'm sorry I am sure Ricardo is a great guy, but F2 had no right talking about how they do things better than "the competition" when F2 was years away from a kit release. McNews wouldnt' do that, Tom wouldn't do that. You guys would only post when you have somethign to post about.

So I ask again, what did FocusSport do wrong? They just say "Here this is what I'm doing" they never make comments about the other kit. If I'm wrong please reference the post. And dont come back with the "Focaljet deletes the post to protect Randy" because it's BS. I have access to the deleted forum guys.

----------------

As for Jons car, his extra power is due to a much better hardware setup, bigger turbo, tons of money poured into it and a better tuning solution. Jon is using a high end HKS standalone ECU. You can do alot more when you have more control!

Originally posted by thekrux
mcnews i read that thread you are talking about and from what i read f2 and others were using dyno smoothing as an excuse. props to fs for educating us, hell i woulda just not known any better and in that thread others admitted the same thing. nothing wrong with that.

x2

As soon as someone questioned the dyno he made sure his was up to show them what it should look like. I would not put a post up like that to compare my dyno with another if another company was posting there information. It is his way of stabbing and he doesn't do things directly he likes to sneak behind the seens. Some people can't do thing face to face thay will find another angle.

Originally posted by McNews
Your point is?

So don't you think FS's car can make more than Jon's car if they used C16 or 110 race fuel? I'm just asking, not trying to challenge anyone [:)]

You talk like you know him, and you dont.

What if your wrong. (which you are by the way).

You're sure making alot of assumptions about a guys character, when you have never met him.

Originally posted by McNews
As soon as someone questioned the dyno he made sure his was up to show them what it should look like. I would not put a post up like that to compare my dyno with another if another company was posting there information. It is his way of stabbing and he doesn't do things directly he likes to sneak behind the seens. Some people can't do thing face to face thay will find another angle.

Keep in mind that F2 was comparing their kit to the FS kit so I don't see anything wrong with a little competitive marketing.........but that's just my own opinion. Also, I think the main purpose was to clear up a little misconception about the smoothing issue.

I have talked with him enough on the phone to know. There are others that have talked with him that say the same. Companies and customers.

Island no I don't think they can make more but I think they should be making more.

Originally posted by IslandFocus
So don't you think FS's car can make more than Jon's car if they used C16 or 110 race fuel? I'm just asking, not trying to challenge anyone [:)]

I dont think so. Jon is using a bigger turbo, and better flowing exhaust manifold, and he's tuning via a MAP sensor instead of MAF. Not that MAF's are capable of tuning for big power, Tom has done plenty of big power runs with a MAF, but it's a bit more work.

I'm not an expert at all, I have just enough understanding to be an informed idiot. But..

As I understand it, bigger turbo's will be less turbulant at higher boost pressures than smaller turbo's. Turbulance hurts horsepower significantly. FocusSport would have to get a bigger turbo to even have a chance at 450.
Also while beautiful equal length turbo manifolds do little when your boosting 10 lbs or so, they become more and more helpful has power increases. FocusSport is using their cast manifold which is great I think, but not the absolute "best" big power solution.

Jons ECU allows him more control over more parameters, so he can do things a bit more than Randy using the SCT software. Could Jon get more power out of the duratec as is, than Randy? Possibly but who knows...

Originally posted by McNews
I have talked with him enough on the phone to know. There are others that have talked with him that say the same. Companies and customers.

Island no I don't think they can make more but I think they should be making more.
I'm sorry I dont believe this one bit. I dont believe Randy backstabs with customers on the phone or otherwise. I would wager someone brought up "well Tom said" and Randy had to defend himself. Big difference.

I'm amazed that you think they "should" be making more power with very little knowledge of what exactly is on the car.

What turbo are they using? Do you know?

mcnews what should they be making? i'd like to know honestly.

and does mcnews have some project car or something? you guys are pretty critical so i'd like to see what you have done to compare with. or are you just another basher?

The whole deal really started about whether you need a wide-band for an NA car...remember? I said you don't...and he poo-poos that. Come on...if that doesn't tell you something about his attitude and what he knows, then nothing will.

And yeah, I can tune better than he can. I have more experience, I've been doing it longer and I've worked on many, many different systems and many, many different motors. It shouldn't be a mystery anywhere but on the web. Some of his clearly ignorant statements and the results of his "tuning" show what he knows and what he doesn't...sure, he may be good to go on the <200 horse show stuff, but when it gets serious, he's not the dude to go to. He doesn't have a good grasp on what's going on with the system. He's out to lunch.

Maybe he's the next Bill Jenkins in person, but you coulda' fooled be by the garbage he spews.

What about the "I can do anything with the stock ECU you can with a standalone" stuff that Randy throws around? I don't think you ought to be throwing that stuff in there...LOL

wow joe. full of yourself much? lol. and are you able to tune better than jon? better than tom? better than mcnews? please let us know.

Actually Joe, when I first read your post, it seemed like you were laughing at Randy. That was my original impression. I'd bet he took it that way too. And plus I guess you guys have a history.

Would I ask Randy to tune my 600 HP monster? No, because I personally dont feel comfortable with SCT as the tuning solution for that kind of power. But maybe the limitations are in the software and not the person.

Randy works late on these tunes, he does all he can to learn as much as he can. His white car is a "work in progress" as he has stated many times. He's learning about these things. Cut him some slack.

Originally posted by turbo joe
What about the "I can do anything with the stock ECU you can with a standalone" stuff that Randy throws around? I don't think you ought to be throwing that stuff in there...LOL

Joe I've not seen this post from Randy, but if he actually stated that, I would disagree with that 100%.

Krux what do you no at all about tuning? Go back under the rock you crawled out from under.

Bela others see things differently. Shops and customers. Customers talk about how arrogant he is when they have talked with him.

There is no comparision between the Zetec and the Duratec on design for power. The Durtec cylinder head design is way better and should translate into more power. Maybe his hardware setup is wrong.

Jon's work is pretty impressive. I should have bought the red Focus when he offered to sell it to me.

The duratec head is definatley better, but the cam profile might not be well suited to boost, it might be perfect... who knows. This is the first car they've done with this much power. Do you seriously think you could get it right the very 1st time? It's a "work in progres"

And to your point about customer pre-conception.
I have never "spoken" to Ray but from some of his posts I would think he's a jerk.

Now I personally dont think this is true at all, because I've seen him help others, but there are times he's said and done things that if I wanted to take as absolute proof of his personality, I'd think he was a jerk.

One thing I do know about Randy is he's a busy guy, and yea he can come off "short" which is very to the point and abrubt some times. And customers can take this any way they want, but I have been around him enough to know that's not him. He's just a guy working 10-15 hour days getting hammered by you guys for trying to do the best he can.

I'd love to see how you guys would react under the same type of pressure.

come on mcnews, what's your claim to fame? being a basher? give us some impressive numbers. give us something that shows us that you are worthy of judging them so harshly.

Originally posted by turbo joe
What about the "I can do anything with the stock ECU you can with a standalone" stuff that Randy throws around? I don't think you ought to be throwing that stuff in there...LOL

Joe, I don't recall Randy saying that the stock ECU can do anything that the standalone stuff can. If I'm wrong, kindly show me proof of this. From what I've read, the impression I get from him is that for most "street" applications the cost doesn't outweigh the benefits from it. I think even Tom stated this before as well.......it SEEMS that they may actually agree on something :lol:

No claim to fame here. You look and you will find some of our work.

10 to 15 hours of work for a single guy with no kids. I would just be getting started at that when I was younger. The younger generation has no idead how easy they have it. 8 hours is just to much wok.

nice. then you're just a basher. talking crap when you have done no better. nice going, that makes you look real professional.

Now go back to playing with your building blocks.


http://focusfanatics.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=102836

that's it? barely 300 hp on 20 psi? you should be making more power! i saw one of jons cars make over 300 on 14 psi.

Has FS tuned a 300 whp Zetec.

McNews knows there stuff. I dont know who this McNews guy is, but I've seen Ray enough over the years to know that they do quality work. So I dont question them.

My only wish is they would show a bit more respect to others who also do quality work.

Because never once have they been able to post actual proof of randy making these statements that they claim he makes. It's all hear-say. And if you want to form an opinion off of hear-say, then your no better than a 6th grade school girl spreading rumors

I guess we see things differently from posts and conversations. It like a butch of little groupies getting together for the cause no matter if there right or wrong. Spoiled babies always like to get there own way.

There ARE FocusSport groupies, but that isn't FocusSport's fault.

Do I blame Tom for Finally's statements? He is by far a Focus-Power groupie is he not?

Why not judge FocusSport by what you know about FocusSport and not what you "hear" or what you have heard from others.

mcnews are you describing this thread? sounds like it. lol. start a thread to bash. right or wrong doesn't matter.

Jon is not FS.

No Duratecs. We will work on them when the time comes.

Why did you change your post.

Originally posted by thekrux
that's it? barely 300 hp on 20 psi? you should be making more power! i saw one of jons cars make over 300 on 14 psi.

This car was built for 300 whp. The turbo was sized accordingly for bottomend. Bigger turbo different intake manifold would make more power. This car doesn't need anymore power. It is actually detuned for street driving. Spinning tires is a waste of time

Originally posted by belacyrf


Do I blame Tom for Finally's statements? He is by far a Focus-Power groupie is he not?



What statements are those exactly...? I went with Focus-Power because It was the best,that's all. I'm no groupie,and more that capable of evaluating the mechanics,
AND the people invoved. But then I'm not the one who has to jump to "the alternative forum" to support my cause.
[thumb]

1. I changed my post becuase it wasn't construtive. I sometimes do "reaction" posts (like I did with SVTBishop) but I personally dont want to post reactionary posts, doens't help anything.

As for your statement.

Yes Jon is not FocusSport but you felt ok to compare FocusSports car to Jons. And when someone did the same thing to you, it wasn't ok?

Second, yes your car was built for 300. Personally I'm not saying you should have done more, I know about turbo's and I know about building a car for a specific purpose. But dont you think FocusSport has those very same reasons as to why they are getting the power on their car?

How come it's ok for you to explain why you are making the power you are making but not FocusSport? You as a tuner should know exactly why their car is making the power it is. The most obvious reason is they aren't using a huge turbo.

Originally posted by finalley
What statements are those exactly...? I went with Focus-Power because It was the best,that's all. I'm no groupie,and more that capable of evaluating the mechanics,
AND the people invoved. But then I'm not the one who has to jump to "the alternative forum" to support my cause.
[thumb]

I dont blame you for being a FocusPower fan, they do good work.

But I will ask you a simple question if you will indulge me. Please detail the exact reasons Focus-Power is "the best". You spend so much time standing on the side of Focus-Power against FocusSport, I have to assume you have first hand knowledge of how FocusSport is bad and Focus-Power is good. Please explain to me exactly why Focus Power is "the best" and FocusSport is so bad.

Dont recite what Tom says, I want to hear your informed opinion.

Sorry guys, but this thread is done.

1turbofocus please check your PM.