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My Oil Change Interval Debate Rant

97K views 484 replies 101 participants last post by  rebelx 
#1 ·
Okay, here is my opinion on the whole oil change issue:

Despite what the manufactures tell you, and the internet, and magazines, etc. Get a good quality oil and change it often. Clean oil protects your engine. PERIOD.

If you are using a conventional oil or semi-synthetic why not use the age old 3000mi interval? The stuff is cheap! I hear all of this debate on the internet, in articles, etc. about using your oil longer, but we spend more on a tank of gas each week than on an oil change! Think about it. Why are people so desperate to extend their intervals when we go though gas like crazy (but that is okay [well, except for the price gouging])?

A freaking cartridge of printer ink costs more than an oil change!!!!

I use synthetic oil in everything. If the car has a decent oil capacity (like the Focus) for its engine size, use, and output then I change it every 5000mi and use a good quality filter (Motorcraft or Mobil-1). If the capacity is low (like my wife's Protege 5 at 3.7 quarts) I change it just like conventional oil (3000mi).

If it is a high performance vehicle that is driven often (like my old Lightning and MS3), I change the synthetic at 3000mi.

It is cheap insurance. We are not killing ourselves financially by doing so. Your car will last longer as well.

Even the "saving the environment" argument is silly...oil can be recycled!

I am not ranting at you, but just in general. I see this debate all the time, and I just don't understand it. I'm as poor as the next guy, but I have no problem spending money on oil. I see it as insurance against bigger repair bills down the road.
 
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#217 ·
Getting the thread back on track.

I totally ignore the computer (and reset it the minute it comes on). I changed the oil at 500 miles, 3500 miles, and then 5000-6000 mile intervals after that. I also don't believe the 10,000 mile intervals. I see shavings and my oil is dirty, means it needed a change.

As a side note. My buddy at ford says that it calculates the oil change interval on Rotations of the crank shaft. I suppose that can be interpreted as outputing different intervals depending on how the car is driven.
 
#218 ·
Crankshaft revolutions would be a logical input, but there also has to be at least one more variable(s) related to oil or water temperature or trip length to compensate for short trip or cold weather use.

Fwiw, I think your oil change strategy makes sense, though physical appearance of oil may not be a good indicator of its health.
 
#221 ·
Odd that Pennzoil would back away from the 100% group III formulation. It was their selling point for the "best cleaning" formulation they made, since petroleum base stocks hold contaminants in suspension better.

I will dig deeper on research.
 
#222 ·
I have found some of the answer, but I think I also found a mistype.

Here is a quote taken from a thread on BITOG about low NOACK for Pennzoil Ultra 5W-20 SN

This was their reply to my email asking about the noack and test.

----

Dear Colin,

Based on the data, yes, they are correct. As for the Noack test, it
is done at ASTD D5800 at 250C.

Regards,
Technical Service, sn
250*C is 482*F, beyond the flash and fire point of the lubricant. It would burn, no way they are testing NOACK at that temperature. Most likely, they are testing at 250*F. In that case, Amsoil tests at 302*C (150*C).

More tests comparing apples to oranges.

In the past six months, I have been told by those at Amsoil corporate that a new GTL (Gas To Liquid) process was about to be the new best base stock for a formulation. Let's wait and see who else jumps on the bandwagon with their best formulations.
 
#225 ·
I have found some of the answer, but I think I also found a mistype.

Here is a quote taken from a thread on BITOG about low NOACK for Pennzoil Ultra 5W-20 SN

250*C is 482*F, beyond the flash and fire point of the lubricant. It would burn, no way they are testing NOACK at that temperature. Most likely, they are testing at 250*F. In that case, Amsoil tests at 302*C (150*C).

More tests comparing apples to oranges.

In the past six months, I have been told by those at Amsoil corporate that a new GTL (Gas To Liquid) process was about to be the new best base stock for a formulation. Let's wait and see who else jumps on the bandwagon with their best formulations.
Astm D5800 is a standard industry test using a flask heated to 250 degrees Centigrade. So Pennzoil, Amsoil, etc are held to the same standard. Pennzoil Ultra is, by most accounts, using considerable GTL base stocks. I'm not saying it is necessarily as good as or better than Amsoil, just that it's a really good oil for the price and may be a good solution for direct injected engines.

Incidentally, I sent an email to Pennzoil today asking about the PDS confusion and was quickly sent the SN version that shows volatility in the 5% range.
 
#223 ·
Here is a UOA from a 2004 Lincoln Town Car. I used Amsoil ATM 10W-30 for the whole year, no oil changes. This sample has 10,350 miles on it.

Could have easily done more miles. Facepalm at the testers comments. DEE DEE DEE! The engine is a Ford 2V V8 modular and the oil is the new API SN. When are they going to update the specs from the older API SM? SLOW!!!

 
#226 ·
If Ultra has been upgraded to the new group III+ GTL base stocks and tests about the same as PAO, engine lubrication is about to become very interesting. It was forecasted about GTL coming soon. Seems things are about to change.
 
#230 ·
I will just comment that the very low NOACK is just a 'selling' note.
The one company which has a very low "XXX" makes it a big deal for folks who love to spout statistics to others about stuff which really does not mean shit.
Sorry but it is true.

So the 'golden wonder oil" has an ultralow NOACK, at 5/6% vs Mobil One with 11%. So.. has ANYONE ever seen all sorts of reports from Corvette owners (who start with Mobil One OEM) about how Mobil One screwed them due to the high NOACK??(( Mobil One DOES mention it's NOACK level if you search the fine print, and they comment it is 11% 12% range))

NO. Because it is a red herring. it may have SOME meaning, but no where near being as important as the 'super best motor oil in the world" freaks want it to be.

Just me ranting. Do not worry super oil freaks, I am CERTAIN your oil IS better.. [hatchet] [neener] [drinking] [cheers]

I am only putting on about 5,000 miles total this years. 95% of that is city short freeway trips. So irregardless of mileage, i will change the oil at one year.
I had already changed it at 1,000 mi, and again at 2,000 due to nOT being able to get the OEM filter off at 1,000mi.
So probably in October i will change my oil (Mobil One 0-W20) and the OEM Motorcraft filter.
 
#231 ·
So.. has ANYONE ever seen all sorts of reports from Corvette owners (who start with Mobil One OEM) about how Mobil One screwed them due to the high NOACK??(( Mobil One DOES mention it's NOACK level if you search the fine print, and they comment it is 11% 12% range))
Corvette engines and other port-injected engines aren't as subject to valve deposits from oil vaporization (volatility) like direct-injection engines such as in the Focus are, so I'm not sure how relevant that argument is.

At least the "super best motor oil in the world" freaks are mostly presenting good information in this thread, rather than ranting.
 
#235 ·
I doubt any oil that meets Ford's specification will cause those engines to fail. Yet, you must be putting faith into Mobil 1 over the cheaper Motorcraft oil for some reason. Is it for better protection, perhaps? If not for specs like better NOACK, what is it specifically that you feel is better about the Mobil 1 product? Could it be that an oil that has better specs than Mobil 1 actually protect your engine better than Mobil 1?

If we didn't have specs like NOACK, how would we know what oils out-perform others?
 
#234 ·
While the issue of NOACK can be of some concern to owners of D.I. vehicles, there are other ways around it. While it is a higher one-time investment, it can save you money in the long term versus paying for expensive boutique oils with low NOACK numbers. It's called a catch can.

The oily & corroded intake valve horror stories started at Audi and has since filtered its way down to Mazda & GM owners, and I'm sure Fords will now suddenly become afflicted with it now that D.I is becoming mainstream in their vehicle lines.

I guess I'd just prefer to stop the problem upstream (PVC system) rather than try to fix it with oil that doesn't evaporate as much (but still evaporates to some degree). Catch can usage is rampant in the Mazdaspeed community, and they're even catching on with Hyundai 2.0T owners now that that engine is growing in numbers in the enthusiast groups.

I rather spend my oil dollars on oil that concentrates on its most important jobs...lubricating, cleaning and cooling. Amsoil seems to have a handle on all these attributes, PLUS NOACK, but it's not as readily available to me as Mobil1 or Pennzoil Platinum, and it's pretty pricy if I'm to include "preferred customer" membership dues, shipping, or the gas it costs me to go pick it up 40+ miles away. If there was an Amsoil store down the street from me, I might be inclined to buy it, but there IS a WalMart just down the street, so my choice is simple. In addition, I can't use Amsoil in my Camaro until it attains a DEXOS certification, which I won't hold my breath for. So, "Candy" will have to make do with Mobil1, & possibly a catch can down the road.
 
#240 ·
Not saying it isn't a fine lubricant, but Amsoil's top-of-the-line "Signature Series" (the one with low Noack and such) is not API "SN" certified. Amsoil points out reasons this is so but does have a proecudure for dealing with cases where warranty coverage is denied because of the lack of certification. So I guess it happens.

While it sure isn't likely to be a problem, I guess I would prefer to keep my life simpler and avoid it, at least during the warranty period.
 
#237 ·
The illusion of exclusivity & the intrinsic value (translation: $$$) it adds. Of course they don't want their oil sold at a discount retailer...their margins would go down when they were forced to discount it.

There once was a motorcycle shop just down the road that Amsoil MC oils at a very good price, and I figured he'd probably be able to order in some car oil for me, but then they went out of business. Just not meant to be!

Fortunately I do have a local source for Redline, although it's pretty pricy too. Their 5W-30 has a NOACK of 6, 5W-20 is 8.
 
#244 ·
You'd win the lottery twice before having an lubrication related failure using Signature Series. If the API wasn't biased on petroleum base stocks, not allowing base stock swapping procedures for true synthetics, all Signature Series lubricants would be API certified. They all surpass the "minimum" requirements that so many certified lubricants barely meet.

The new Signature Series formulations have API SN acceptable levels of ZDDP. Moly and Boron were boosted in the additive package to compensate. I've proven in the GT500 supercharged engine that elevated levels of ZDDP alone do NOT decrease engine wear. API SN levels of ZDDP were more than sufficient when other additives were present in the formulation.
 
#246 ·
The better deal is.....

better wear (increase engine life), better efficiency (increase mpg), lower NOACK (lower deposits), less waste oil (be more green), and the convenience of one annual oil change from Amsoil Signature Series.

If you are buying for two or more cars, then the comparison is no competition. Amsoil wins hands down.
 
#248 ·
This is the subject where I often differ with most people on automotive forums. This is definitely not to say or assume that Amsoil filters (or any other brand) are in any way inferior, but in keeping with a manufacturer's warranty, an aftermarket filter that doesn't provide adequate flow can cause any number of problems including valvetrain noise / damage, troubles with VVT funtion, and so on. When these issues arise and an aftermarket filter is involved, the manufacturer is not obligated to warranty a repair.

Kia experienced this with 2.0 Kia Fortes, and finally issued a bulletin to their dealerships notifying them that valvetrain noise is likely caused by the customer using aftermarket filters, and replacing it with a Kia filter will rectify the problem. They went on to say that continued use of these filters may cause valvetrain damage and it would not be warrantied.

Even if I do go with Amsoil, it'll still be filtered by Motorcraft. Just wanted to give everyone a heads up about the sticky parts of their powertrain warranties. Thanks to the Magnuson-Moss Act, you're perfectly within your rights to change your own oil, or have it changed wherever you like, but the oil & filter you choose can indeed affect your warranty.
 
#253 ·
Everyone has their preference.

I choose to change my oil no more than once a year while sparing the environment with waste oil. Yes, I understand they recycle most of it, but that requires additional energy. As a side benefit, I also have less wear.

The UOA's of proof are on the way, just give it time.
 
#254 ·
y'all are gonna hate me.

First off - per other SAE studies. With a good filter and some time, i like a 5K change. with a good filter and some synthetic I trust, I will go until the monitor goes off.

However - what do I trust is a very short list. M1, Amsoil, and Castrol.

but as said if you just can't stand it - change it more often - hurts nothing but your wallet.

But my biggest thing - run a filter magnet. I don't care if you use cheap oil that you change often. I don't care if you use some magic brand filter etc (I prefer wix). I don't care what you drive.

USE A FILTER MAGNET!!!


Now I'm not also selling those 59 dollar filter mags from Jegs or Summit etc. Use what you can find easily.

I use the magnets off the heads of sonicare toothbrushes, or magnets out of a harddrive. Yes really. Why - they were free. And guess what they are strong enought to stay on the filter of a 500 HP v8 car in Memphis City traffic over a 6 month period.

Then they are also strong enough to pull iron metals to the sides of the filter. And again - cheap.

Meanwhile in my family car I use 9 quarts of Amsoil 5-30 and a wix gold filter.

for my new focus - I intend to use Amsoil in it too and some filter. That is up for debate currently.
 
#255 ·
With modern engines, modern oil and the detergent additives used, the intervals you are talking about are just plain silly. You can make the argument that it's cheap, ink carts cost more, etc. but that does not change that fact that you are advocating plain, unnecessary waste. Milk is cheap too, but I do not buy gallons of it then go dump it in the street just because I can readily afford to.

I have put in excess of 230,000 miles on 13 different cars (that's 230k, minimum, on each, not all combined). Each was maintained to the letter of the manufacturer's maintenance intervals. In some cases the oil change was 5,000 miles (some turbo engines from the `80s), in most cases it is 7,500, and in others 10,000 or more.

In every single case; not some, not most, but every case I have had zero engine, bearing or any issues of any kind that could be traced to or blamed on insufficient oil changes. My Civic just passed 250k and still does not burn a drop between it's 10,000-mile interval. I have done partial tear downs of some engines I put over 300k on for fun (the engine was still running great but the body so corroded and structurally unsound from the salty winters we get here that the car was worth little more than scrap metal), and found no significant buildup in the oil galleys, valves, etc. Many independent labs have done studies on this and found that oil actually reaches it's best lubricating properties between 2k and 7k miles also.

You can of course piss your money away however you wish if it makes you feel better, but what you suggest is in no way better for your car, improves its performance or will make it last longer. The placebo effect is strong, however, and this is all you'll get from 3k oil changes.
 
#256 ·
So you've had bearing issues that you could definitively say were -not- due to maintenance habits?

I ask because, personally, I've purchased used cars that developed bearing issues. I'd be hard pressed to say for certain it wasn't because of maintenance habits.

I don't think your milk-dumping analogy is great because what you're talking about is purely wasteful. I'd liken it more to people who live an inactive lifestyle--there's a decent chance that they'll live to be elderly, but if they'd make the investment and exercise they would increase their odds. Similar to diligent vehicle maintenance--it's not a guarantee but it improves your odds, so it isn't a complete waste of money.
 
#261 ·
You don't even want to know how the oil is maintained on a jet aircraft engine.

So to that end - again if it makes you feel better change it as often as you like use whatever you want.

Its like other things people grew up with as a child. you must floss your teeth or they will fall out. You must rinse off your dishes before putting them in the dishwasher. . . . . .


Eitherway FORD has done some research and so have some others and are telling you its OK to go a bit futher between events. Trust me when I say - it will be OK.
 
#262 ·
You don't even want to know how the oil is maintained on a jet aircraft engine.
In the Navy fighter jets, it's tested every 20 hours, changed around 30-50 hours at most. IIRC.
 
#264 ·
LOL. Is that pic real, or a Photoshop special?


I have no doubt it's tested at absurdly high intervals for a military jet aircraft, but comparing a Ford Focus (or any automobile for that matter) to a $150,000,000 fighter jet (F-22 unit cost) is like comparing apples to, well, automobiles. [facepalm]
 
#265 ·
I'm sure the point is more about oil analysis than it is about comparing our cars to figjter jets... Aircraft I would waste a ton of money if oil changes were done on an arbitrary number established decades ago.
That being said, I need to find a way to mount rocket pods to deal with the @sshats that drive around here.
 
#266 ·
I agree, when you are dealing with that much money and a pilots safety, you have to test everything often. They don't have the luxury to "pull over" on the side of the road during operation when something fails.
 
#268 ·
LOL.

anyway - hyperbole notwithstanding. That's not a photoshop. Mobile Jet II is a real thing - its decent stuff too.

and well - you could just change the filters and top of the oil regularly - say around 3K miles.

that would do most of the job if not all. testing over the last 30 years in cars and in jets has proven some things about oil life and ability.

Its also driven changes to how lubrication is designed - that's the biggest part. Design parameters and theories have improved over the decades.

Oh and incase you didn't know. what was on an aircraft 20 years ago - is usually already on a car. and in a few cases - it works the other way.

(ABS, Drive by wire, Stability assistance, Ergonomics of position, etc.)
 
#269 ·
OCI finally went off at 10,250 miles, so I went for its first oil change last week.

According to TSB 12-5-5, the OCI would have never gone off (my car was built November 2011, which falls within that TSB), yet it eventually did.

And despite the (relatively) early build date, the dealer said there were no applicable TSBs for my car. Interesting...
 
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